Sophistry on faith-based discrimination - 7 comments
I've come to this quite late, but I might as well set out some of my own views, for the record. To start off, though, Andrew at Wongablog has an excellent post on the Archbishops of York and Canterbury's defence of "individual conscience" in matters of sexuality-based discrimination. Here's a stand-out sentence:
Iâm not criticising her [Ruth Kelly] because of her faith affiliation, Iâm criticising her because her arguments make no sense. [...] But I wouldnât say sheâs not fit to hold public office - she gives every impression of being a very intelligent and competent woman, itâs just that the evidence seems to suggest she has a blind spot when it comes to faith-related matters.I might have summarised the issue as simply as this:
Treating people differently on the sole basis of their sexual orientation is a clear breach of universal human rights. End of story.A couple of supplementary points, though. Given that there are no limits on faith, and no mechanism through which they can be evaluated conclusively (by definition), it should be obvious that we cannot accept one faith-based argument without accepting all such arguments, including contradictory ones. So until the various Churches decide to use moral, or practical arguments (based upon evidence), or else insist upon an individual's general right to discriminate as their conscience demands, their call for individual consciences to trump our moral principles in particular cases, is without any merit whatsoever. What's particularly pitiful is that the Archbishops are either unwilling or unable to use the teachings of their own religion to bolster their case, so meek are they. Aware that none of the above strategies can extricate them from their impossible position, they resort to sophistry in an attempt to steal the argument, covering their backs to avoid direct criticism, perhaps hoping the political heat might tell on ministers. What reasonable people they are - how cold we must be:
Those discussions have been conducted in good faith, in mutual respect and with an appropriate level of confidence on all sides. [...] As you approach the final phase of what has, until very recently, been a careful and respectful consideration [...]I'm ashamed to say that I consulted Nick Robinson's blog for the "talk among the backbenches", and found something almost as ludicrous as the Archbishops' statements (my emphasis):
[...] Allow me to delicately suggest, however, that the attitudes being displayed now towards Catholics in public life must feel to them like a form of prejudice and discrimination.Saints preserve us! We really should display this more prominently:

Labels: discrimination, religion, sophistry










![Validate my Atom feed [Valid Atom]](http://www.bloggers4labour.org/images/valid-atom.png)






7 comments so far...
"What's particularly pitiful is that the Archbishops are either unwilling or unable to use the teachings of their own religion to bolster their case, so meek are they."
Yes, they say religion is all about purity of principle, but they're clearly either too embarrassed by the archaic attitudes that they've been charged with upholding to make the direct argument, or else too worried about looking intolerant to the general population to say what they really think.
Oh, for an honest 'Look, some of Leviticus is pretty weird, you know, shall we just ignore it' or 'We mustn't let children catch gayness from the pervs'...
One of my colleagues at work is a tremendously good-spirited, open, tolerant person who confided in me once that she is a catholic and very religious - naturally I was very interested and we had a long chat about it.
At work in the last few days lots of people have naturally been talking about the ridiculous idea that the catholic church should get an exemption, and she was quick to agree with that position.
Interestingly, though, I've watched her squirm and wince as pretty much all debate has been conducted in the midst of people saying (at best) "Who cares what Catholics think?" or "Catholics are incredibly stupid" and (at worst) "I really fucking hate Catholics".
Which puts Nick Robinson's comments in some sort of perspective I think.
The Catholic Church teaches that homosexual activity is wrong. period. It also teaches that homosexuals should not be subject to unjust treatment or discrimination. These views are not incompatible but in fact quite logical. It is the sexual activity that the Church has a problem with not that someone is gay. The idea of placing a child in a situation which runs completely against Catholic teaching is anathema. The idea that Catholics should be forced to act against the clear teachings of their faith by the state is ridiculous - not that they should be exempt from it. The State cannot have its way all the time.
J,
Interestingly, though, I've watched her squirm and wince as pretty much all debate has been conducted in the midst of people saying (at best) "Who cares what Catholics think?" or "Catholics are incredibly stupid" and (at worst) "I really fucking hate Catholics".
Are people really saying that? None of those statements follow from any of the secularist arguments. I really don't think, though, that Nick had that kind of thing in mind. I think he was trying to mischievously (and unsuccessfully) flip the argument around.
===
roydosan,
I can't see the point of discussing what Catholics believe or why, only insofar as they impact upon other people. The right to discriminate against the practitioners of homosexual sex that Catholics assert, imposes a responsibility on the rest of society, specifically, that gay couples seeking to adopt must either withhold from sexual activity (which seems to me to be an outrageous imposition, incompatible with the values of a liberal society), or use another adoption agency, if one exists. The responsibility is also imposed upon the children who are less likely to be adopted.
So in fact the State isn't "having it's way", it's simply matching rights and responsibilities, and validating that these are both compatible with liberal values.
"The responsibility is also imposed upon the children who are less likely to be adopted."
Very good point - I hadn't thought of it that way.
I take your point but the problem is forcing Catholics to do something which goes against both their conscience and the rules of the Church. No-one is arguing that the Catholic viewpoint on this should dictate what the rest of society does, just that Catholics should have freedom in this regard in the same way they do over abortion. Forcing Catholic adoption agencies (which are very small in number anyway) to adhere to this law has nothing to do with the rights of children and everything to do with making a point. If Catholic agencies are exempt then gay couples will still be able to adopt. Maybe the law should ensure Catholic agencies refer gay couples to adoption agencies that will help them - but forcing them to adhere to this law helps no-one least of all the children. There has to be some leeway to allow and respect differences of opinion in society.
I don't agree that Catholics or anyone of any particular faith will be 'forced to do something against their faith'.
The regulations fully exempt the internal activities of a faith.
State aided activities that are open to all of society should however meet a basic standard of respect for the principles of non-discrimination.
Especially as the faith based sector is about to be expanded. I don't have a problem with that but think that publicly funded/aided activities should not be exempted from legislation abou basic fairness.
Post a Comment
<< Home