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Tuesday, November 21, 2006

Compass on ageism - 19 comments

I understand that posts on the Compass site are intended to promote discussion, and that (as I was once told) we're not suppose to hold the organisation responsible for the articles posted on its site, but I've got to say that what purports to be the premier think-tank of the Labour soft left has a good record of producing utter tripe. That's not to say that its posts are very much below average for the political blogosphere, but most bloggers can't claim to be part of a funded organisation that counts MPs and Councillors among its supporters, and which must feel confident it has a chance of influencing future Labour manifestos. What is it they do that earns them this status?

Here (via Tom at Newer Labour), Andy Morton argues that resistance to removing the lower National Minimum Wage [NMW] rates for those aged 21 and under, is entirely a matter of ageism:
However, we must reject the need for the youth rates in the National Minimum Wage which amounts to nothing less than ageism. Compass Youth, in its launch event on Monday night in Westminster, is campaigning for the National Minimum Wage youth rates to be scrapped and to have the full adult rate minimum wage available to ALL workers.
What reason might the Government have for sticking to its guns? Well before we proceed: how can you possibly discuss policy that has a major economic effect when you're either (a) ignorant of economics, or (b) don't accept it has any relevance to the issue? That's one possible, and plausible, reason for disagreement before we even look at ageism. Oh, and here's another one:
The government claims the youth rates are necessary to reduce youth unemployment. The same rationale was used by the French government when it proposed relaxing hiring and firing laws for workers under 26 earlier this year. There were massive youth demonstrations. France does have a huge problem with youth unemployment.
Not massive demonstrations against unemployment, of course; against the ossification of the labour market; or the social effects of past unemployment. Anyway, it sounds bad, so what is Andy's criticism of the French government's proposals? Well, apart from being a "worrying fad" (try a little empathy...), there is none, just an observation that the proposals were too controversial for that fractious society to accept. Perhaps, though, the UK government is - or rather, continues to be - keen to avoid those social problems1, perhaps also on the basis of what would the evidence (and models) suggest is best for the economy, rather than what the most powerful pressure groups will permit.

What is it about ageism we really find offensive? Surely it would be the thought that workers with a great deal of experience, who are no less able to perform a particular job, are discriminated against at, or even before, job interviews, and find it very difficult to re-enter the job market. Do these same factors tell against workers under the age of 22? Clearly young workers do not have to face the prospect of early retirement, or de-skilling, with no prospect of earning decent money again. In the real world, experience is vital for one's career prospects, but young workers generally can't offer this to potential employers. Sure, this doesn't apply to all industries, and it doesn't apply to all young workers, as some will be highly talented. The NMW, however, applies to all, irrespective of industry, talent, and passion. Furthermore, are we saying that highly effective young workers can only expect to advance at the Government's behest?

Even if rising employment elsewhere masks the effects of changes in the NMW rates, there will inevitably be a reduction in jobs and/or hours for younger workers. Is that a price worth paying so that those who are left - and who may very well not be poor at all (the issue of poverty seems to have entirely passed the original article by) - may earn a higher wage? Potentially the slack could be taken up by mechanisation, by illegal workers below the NMW, or else by those who might jump at the chance to work at this wage - possibly new immigrants, though older workers may suddenly become more attractive.

The effects of this policy, aimed at the youth, may thus be of most benefit to those workers who really do suffer the predations of ageism, with some benefits for remaining young workers, at a cost of higher youth unemployment. Whether this tempts more 18-21 year olds into higher education, or into social exclusion, I certainly couldn't say off the top of my head. Nor, I suspect, could Andy, off the top of his head, but whichever of us has the ability to influence policy ought to bear these possible consequences in mind, and look at detailed statistics rather than headline/aggregate employment and unemployment figures.

___________

1 OK, it would be a gross simplification to suggest that France's urban social problems are entirely a result of youth unemployment, and/or that the same awaited the UK. Nonetheless, and especially given that the equalisation of NMW rates is not being promoted for being an effective poverty-reduction measure, the Government has a duty to be cautious about making changes that are likely to cause unemployment within a social group, or dramatic shifts in income between age groups.

19 comments so far...

At 1:12 PM, November 21, 2006, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Looking at the Low Pay Commission's statistics, the number of 18-21 year olds being paid below the adult rate of the minimum wage was about 262,000 in 2004, about 16% of the total number of this group who are in work. Research shows that there is little evidence of employers responding to the minimum wage by seeking employment either towards or away from young people.

The Low Pay Commission's case in favour of a lower rate for 18-20 (they favour putting the rate up for 21 year olds) is that young people with no skills and no training would otherwise find it much harder to get a job. There's no particularly decisive economic arguments either way, the unions say the rate should be equalised and the CBI disagree.

There are other ways of addressing the problem of low skilled people being excluded from the labour market than through a lower rate for all under 22's, such as a Development Rate being linked to accredited training.

The lower rate is particularly harsh for people who do have the same skills as older employees but end up getting paid less for doing the same work. It is particularly galling when most young workers are employed by big companies like McDonald's which could easily afford to pay a higher wage.

But, yeah, there is more to the issue than ageism, even if Compass are right on the need for a policy change.

   
At 3:34 PM, November 21, 2006, Blogger Bloggers4Labour said...

...there is little evidence of employers responding to the minimum wage by seeking employment either towards or away from young people.

That may be the case, but I don't believe there could be no impact on employment patterns at all. Perhaps that's actually a sign of ageism, showing that even though there are older workers in circulation, they're not being considered. It's a thought. As I implied in the post, there may be larger changes at work that mask or conceal the effects on youth employment, and we need to measure the effects of any uprate in *isolation*. Bear in mind that there is evidence of a reduction in hours as a result of the existing NMW.

... young people with no skills and no training would otherwise find it much harder to get a job. There's no particularly decisive economic arguments either way...

Not decisive, just theories that can be tested with the right models. Clearly there will be NMW rates at which young workers will be turfed-out in droves. Perhaps Govt. economists could say what these might be, and the key is to make sure that we (in our relative ignorance) don't demand policies that push things that far.

...a Development Rate being linked to accredited training.

Well, yes, it's worth a go, and it makes economic sense, but it's not what Andy had in mind. That's partly what annoyed me about his piece: yes, it helped promote debate, but it didn't really add anything sensible to it, or improve our tools for continuing it.

The lower rate is particularly harsh for people who do have the same skills as older employees but end up getting paid less for doing the same work. It is particularly galling when most young workers are employed by big companies like McDonald's which could easily afford to pay a higher wage.

Experience is far from being the only determinant of salary: time within a particular workplace counts, as does age/family responsibilities. The second one is particularly hard on younger workers, and should be challenged. There will be talented individuals, as well as industries where age and experience is less important (McDonalds, for one). A minimum wage would be a good idea here, the problem is that enforcing one single minimum across the whole economy risks sacrificing *those* gains, for losses in other industries. What happened to Wages Councils?

   
At 3:59 PM, November 21, 2006, Blogger Scrybe said...

I'm going to post about the monday event later tonight. 'Twas an interesting one.

   
At 5:22 PM, November 21, 2006, Blogger Sham said...

Bloggers4labour,

You are absolutely right about Compass. "Utter tripe" doesn't even begin to describe the views and opinions of some members of this unseemly rabble.

Compass is not a forum for open, democratic debate. Far from it. If they disagree with what you say, they're unlikely to publish it. Criticise one of their ilk - like Papabaz, for example - and your comments are unlikely to see the light of day.

Their two-faced spinelessness is sickening. One of their members can insult you with impunity, yet try to respond and you will be censored, your comments "moderated".

This isn't democracy and freedom of speech, it's the complete opposite.

   
At 12:10 AM, November 22, 2006, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Actually Sham, you're wrong. I (obviously) go to the Compass website regularly and I know that EVERY comment (as long as it doesn't contain swear words or anything likely to be taken as libel) is posted. You only have to read the many post from critics such as "Sea Sider" and others to see that.

   
At 3:32 AM, November 22, 2006, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Wow. The Compass effect really puts it up 'em.

Andrew, you are normally pretty fair, but I think that characterising a whole section of Labour opinion as 'utter tripe' is pretty harsh of you, and *grits teeth* factionalistic.

You can do better than stooping to insults.

I also think that the argument that people who aren't economists are somehow disqualified from having views on policies related to economics is a badly based contention. What are we allowed to discuss then? Nothing on civil liberties because we aren't lawyers, or legal scholars?

Also, the whole way through, you say that this thinking came from Compass. Not true. It comes from the Compass youth group. We're all under 25 andrew, it's not like any of us are analysts. I have no problem with Compass youth being scrutinised, but Labour Students, Young Labour and Young Fabians policy is never discussed in such a manner.

In fact, I supposre this is also an attack on Labour Students, because it is also part of their policy on widening access.

I suspect that the real reasons that compass are unpopular for many party activists, particularly on the right of the party, has little to do with content, and a lot more to do with personalities, and stepping out of line. If this were the mainstream current of insider opinion, things would be very different (a bit like Euston actually: where's these posts attacking blair for getting pally with Syria and Iran then? But I stray)...

On a point of substance, the idea behind this piece is that people shouldn't suffer a lower wage because they are young. Nobody said anything about experience. The fact is that at the moment, thousands of young people are being payed less than people older than them, but with the same experience. The test is not based on experience, but could be. It is based on age. That sir, is discrimination. If the NMW is based on the minimum that a person should expect in return for their work, why is it that some people (the young in particualar), can expect to be payed less for the very same effort in?

Andrew, as it stands, my generation is a lot more impoverished than any other was at our age (one thing that David Cameron is certainly right about), so in my view, adressing this poverty has more relative importance.

If people are going to get sacked, and they are of equal experience, why must it be the young? Can you imagine the outcry if we went into a recession, so all the old people got sacked? In these situations, age discrimination legislation is the remedy, as we have seen for the elderly. A person's age should not be a factor in employment or employment rights. Experiance and age, though someties related, are entirely different criteria.

We're losing money from paying women equally... let's sack all the women!

This logic only feeds a downwards competition in wages for everybody (though it hits the young first). If that's democratic socialism, then I'm a carrot.

Anyway, if we are to base a minimum wage on experince and the absolute demands of the labour market, as opposed to basic human dignity, why do we even keep a minimum?

These issues are clearly contested (among generations rather than left and right, if anything). If an issue is honestly contended, with logic that a reasonable person may find logical, how can you brand something 'utter tripe'? I find that unnecessarily nasty, and quite out of character. Hang your head...

Sham, Progress do exactly the same on their website, and I've never had a problem.

TOKEN LEFTIE COMMENT WARNING:

Usual Blairites... one rule for one, another for everyone else...

   
At 11:01 AM, November 22, 2006, Blogger Sham said...

Tom & Miranda,

Up until yesterday I would have agreed with you. "Papabaz", whoever he is, has insulted me, I've responded - without the use of swear words or libel - and my comments have been censored.

The same individual then slated me again, unmoderated ... where's the fairness in that?

Maybe the two of you can use your contacts to find out what the hell's going on.

Thank you.

   
At 11:32 AM, November 22, 2006, Blogger Bloggers4Labour said...

I don't see why economics knowledge/awareness must be an optional extra when proposing that the Govt. fix a wage rate, which has to be a largely economic issue. It was hardly a philosophical piece, just a political assertion and a gaping hole where the effects on the economy ought to be covered. Why should it matter that the guy's under 25? I'm not so very much older, and nothing I've done in the past 5 years has given me any special ability to criticise that isn't open to an A-level student, a Wikipedia browser, or blog reader. If economics is irrelevant, why doesn't he justify that?

It's nothing personal, I don't have any complaint about Compass itself or its goals, and have no other 'faction' (let alone 'Blairism') to promote, but posts like this (and others...) really damage its credibility, as well as that of the Left. Just imagine if they were fast-tracked to supportive MPs.

...The fact is that at the moment, thousands of young people are being payed less than people older than them, but with the same experience. The test is not based on experience, but could be. It is based on age. That sir, is discrimination.

I think I covered that: there is discrimination, but the NMW is a blunt weapon that will benefit some (in terms of wages) at the cost of others (in terms of job losses and hour reductions). I'd rather the *legal minimum* were lower than that people are forced - by the government - out of their job. This is all the more important given that the lack of experience makes it harder to get non-casual jobs in the first place. Besides, insofar as poverty is a problem for the under-22s, how does it help the fight to raise the wages of the high proportion who still live at home and are supported in other ways. It's an inefficient policy; we can do better.

If people are going to get sacked, and they are of equal experience, why must it be the young?

Well, in the real world there are a number of reasons (I covered one or two above) why might this happen, but raising the minimum below which firms cannot pay means one factor in young workers' favour is removed.

Experiance and age, though someties related, are entirely different criteria.

They're different, but they're strongly related. Depends upon the industry, doesn't it? That's why one-wage-fits-all must have some negative effects.

This logic only feeds a downwards competition in wages for everybody (though it hits the young first). If that's democratic socialism, then I'm a carrot.

We're not actually talking about wages (which are rising, albeit at a lower rate than national income), but about legal minima. Democratic socialists should recognise that greater wealth can be achieved (for distribution, and all) by not pricing yourself out of the market by forbidding companies from (legally) employing people at a particular wage, even when there are people willing to work for that (think second jobs).

If we had a decent Citizen's Income we could ensure a minimum living for all, and scrap all these arbitrary minimum wages. Then employers could pay what the job's actually worth, and people could either take the job or tell them to stuff it. Poverty falls and more jobs become available; of course, whether more jobs are actually filled is another matter.

If an issue is honestly contended, with logic that a reasonable person may find logical, how can you brand something 'utter tripe'? I find that unnecessarily nasty, and quite out of character. Hang your head...

Don't want to sound unpleasant but I'm not sure that Andy's piece is deserving of that consideration, and I think it can only help the common good to subject it - and all articles on critical themes - to the utmost critical attention. I was mainly annoyed because there was such a glaring gap in it, and because the more posts like that we see, the more our ability to engage with Tories and the electorate on economic issues is eroded. 'Tripe' is a fairly mild term in my book (I don't swear on this blog, but some fine bloggers do on theirs) - much like 'bunkum', 'balderdash', and 'hot air' - hardly offensive stuff, surely?

   
At 11:56 AM, November 22, 2006, Anonymous Anonymous said...

These people who are going to rubbish the Compass website so easily shouldnt bother to use it if thats their attitude. I read the Compass comments pages every day and its obvious why papabaz's and shams comments began to get cut up and sensored. They were getting ruder and ruder and not conducive to sensible intelligent and democratic debate! and just to make this clear papabaz is NOT a blairite ranter he is a lefty ranter. Shamik is the blairite ranter and they were both taking pot shots at each other which didnt contribute anything and it was getting worse and worse. Compass has been very even handed with these two but I think the moderator is getting sick and tired of having the Compass website tarnished by such rudeness.

   
At 12:22 PM, November 22, 2006, Blogger Compass Youth Group said...

I'm posting as 'Compass Youth' because I don't have my own blogger account.

My name is David Floyd and my opinions don't necessarily reflect the views of anyone other than myself...

Anyway, on the 'censorship' thing, I myself have criticised the wacky views of Papabaz and others on our left-flank.

Compass - like the Labour Party - is a broad church.

On the quality of the opinion writing on the site. As a democratic membership organisation, Compass uses its website as a place where ordinary members can express their views on policy issues.

I don't accept that political discussion should be confined to an elite group of experts.

There's plently of websites and thinktanks offering politicians and policy wonks a forum for opinions that many people consider to be 'utter tripe'.

Andy Morton's piece is one young member's personal angle on a policy position supported by the TUC, Unison, the GMB, the NUS and a large number of children and young people's charities.

Of course, ageism isn't is the only issue involved.

And I certainly wouldn't argue that older people - particularly the over 50s - get a good deal from the labour market at present.

But the specific question of whether it's right that two people doing exactly the same job should be paid different rates for their work on the basis of their age is a legitimate one.

   
At 1:00 PM, November 22, 2006, Blogger Bloggers4Labour said...

First up, can we bring this censorship discussion to a close? I've no interest in it (this being my thread), and have no reason to impugn Compass as an organisation, or to believe they are behaving any differently to anyone else.

Hi David...

Compass uses its website as a place where ordinary members can express their views on policy issues.

OK, but to what extent is Compass responsible for the views expressed, and to what extent will the views be a reflection of what Compass might lobby - or encourage its supporters to campaign - for?

I don't accept that political discussion should be confined to an elite group of experts.

Sure, but we don't have to be experts to raise (economic) objections that didn't seem to have been appropriately considered in the original article. I don't think we should hold off from constructive criticism just because someone who posted with the authority we accord to someone we trust to understand the issues, is being defended on the basis of their lack of years (I must say, I was unaware of this at the time) and their not being an 'expert'. I don't think I've been unreasonable.

But the specific question of whether it's right that two people doing exactly the same job should be paid different rates for their work on the basis of their age is a legitimate one.

It is, but the piece would have been improved if it had not glossed-over the inefficiency of the NMW instrument, the likely negative effects on employment, and had covered alternative - though perhaps less-known - policies.

   
At 2:25 PM, November 22, 2006, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Firstly I apologise for my poor spelling. I am to rude to spellcheck, and too fast to type with competance, which awards me a blogger hand-slap.

Secondly, I like swearing, it is the finest form of expression known to man. I prefer not to use terms of abuse about people or their connected opinions however, just the opinion itself. But your's is a denunciation of an organisation (with 2500 members to boot).

Andrew, I don't seek to defend Compass youth on the lack of our years. I am aware that, as a blog, we're going to take flack, too. But, when other youth organisations, trade unions and think tanks come out with the same positions, for the same reasons, they aren't subject to the same standard of criticism as us. Rather than defending us particularly, I think that all youth organisation should be treated the same.

At the same time, bear in mind that, as people are of a different generation (though not far off, I concede!), they may percieve even the empirical aspects of debates differently to you. You have to understand that their is a clear divide, neccesitated by our aging population (and Labour's current failure to come to grips with the effects inflicted on the young).

Just on a point of policy, re. the 'race to the bottom'. We are discussing wages, because the minimum in question forms part of the wage structure (for people my age, around 80% of the wage structure in which they are employed, as you acknowledge).

Your argument implies that we should cut or freeze minima in the face of even discriminatory job cuts.

What I want to know is, why is it a bad thing if this happens to people that are 'not as dynamic', but not worth legislating on for people that are 'not as experienced' (which are in fact both stereotypes to which I am totally opposed).

Race to the bottom, and the young are the pacemakers.

I do except that it is worth holding back the demands of the poorest as it will provide the greatest net benefit (you know of my fetish for the difference principle). The problem is that in the face of rising costs (tuition fees, rising house prices, general inflation, car insurance, removal of transport concessions; the list goes on), barely anything is being done to combat the poverty of our generation, and the excuse for it is based on a discriminatory premise, because not enough of us vote.

The best answers to this are

1) Young workers joining unions. So much more could be done there.

2) Young people doing some work at the voting booth when they are on time off from McDonalds or the call-centre

3) An equal minimum wage based on basic human dignity and market comprimise, rather than simple market norms

4) More social housing builds.

5) A free higher education for all, and failing that, one that is not too expensive and weighted towards the middle class, with progressive means testing.

Now, If I see anyone posting on anything that may involve legislation, I shall henceforth demand that they read the bills in full, along with the relevant jurisprudential texts.

   
At 2:26 PM, November 22, 2006, Anonymous Anonymous said...

And when it comes down to a fair play between the unions and the CBI, know which side I'm on.

   
At 3:23 PM, November 22, 2006, Blogger politicalcorrespondent said...

Erm, is B4L actually attacking the whole concept of the NMW here? That seems to be the implicit conclusion of many of his remarks, not least the idea that we either go back to the Wages Councils (I look forward to the replacement of the logo at the top with "Britain Back to the 1970s, Not Forward") or bring in a Citizen's Income (could a shock B4L endorsement of John McDonnell be forthcoming?) so I would be curious for a clarification.

If not, then many of the arguments deployed could equally be applied to the minimum wage in general.

   
At 3:42 PM, November 22, 2006, Blogger Compass Youth Group said...

"OK, but to what extent is Compass responsible for the views expressed, and to what extent will the views be a reflection of what Compass might lobby - or encourage its supporters to campaign - for?"

In general, the website feautures articles that Compass deems worthy of debate amongst members (and others).

In the specific instance of the Minimum Wage youth rates, the Compass Youth group - an informal group of Compass members aged under 30 - supports and is campaigning for an equal minimum wage for all workers.

Andy Morton is a member of that group but he's giving his personal reasons for supporting the campaign rather than a collective position of the Compass Youth group or Compass as a whole.

In terms of the other points, I'm not disagreeing with your argument that Andy's article doesn't cover all aspects of the debate.

I was mainly responding to this:
"I've got to say that what purports to be the premier think-tank of the Labour soft left has a good record of producing utter tripe. That's not to say that its posts are very much below average for the political blogosphere, but most bloggers can't claim to be part of a funded organisation that counts MPs and Councillors among its supporters, and which must feel confident it has a chance of influencing future Labour manifestos. What is it they do that earns them this status?"

Individual members who write opinion pieces for the home page blog section of the Compass website website are not paid to write and most are not 'part of a funded organisation' beyond being a member of it.

Their status is no higher or lower than your average political blogger.

Those bloggers on the Compass home page who are politicians, academics or well-known commentators obviously represent themselves in that capacity.

Our fullscale published documents - both on and offline - do go through an editorial process, so do represent Compass in terms of being regarded as high quality contributions to the political debate on the centre-left but are, once again, designed to generate debate within the Compass membership rather than represent its views.

   
At 4:48 PM, November 22, 2006, Blogger Bloggers4Labour said...

PC,

Erm, is B4L actually attacking the whole concept of the NMW here?

I have covered this at least once further up, but in summary: the *existing* NMW pays too much to the already-comfortable, not enough to the very poor, and has been shown (see link further up) to have a small but -ve effect on employment. It may be very much better than having no NMW, but is not a policy we ought to be satisfied with, or want to extend without looking at alternatives. I've mentioned Citizen's Income a few times; didn't know JMcD was in favour.

Tom, I'll get back to you later, but I'll just say in passing that I've got no interest in the views of the CBI: they're not economists, but a business lobby/interest group. You wouldn't define Socialism by what the TUC say, surely?

   
At 5:34 PM, November 22, 2006, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Blatent plug: A parellel debate on the youth NMW is taking place on The Progressive if anyone is interested ...

http://theprogressive.typepad.com/the_progressive/2006/11/old_enough_to_k.html

   
At 8:52 PM, November 22, 2006, Anonymous Anonymous said...

No, course not, my point was a lighthearted one.

   
At 4:45 PM, December 07, 2006, Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Britain Back to the 1970s, Not Forward"

Mmm... I like that slogan!

   

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