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Tuesday, December 13, 2005

God: read and be saved - 5 comments

Neil's been taking on all comers (OK, mainly Blimpish) on the subject of religion, or, more specifically, on the existence of 'God'. I was going to leave a comment, but decided there might just be enough in it to warrant a non-meme post.

Atheist I may still be, but whether I could have been this way if I had been socialised into a community of zealous believers, instead of being brought up as a lapsed, liberal CofE, I wouldn't like to say. Perhaps it is a myth, but if it were true that the CofE clergy were less committed to their cause than others, and assuming they've been granted no greater insight than those of other religions, perhaps the problem is with them, and not the cause?

I'd also add that, while it's great to be an atheist and have a sound, moral code (if it's really that different from Christianity without the god, and assuming you trust me when I say it 'works') it seems obvious to me that, for some people, believing in something like 'God' would be better for them than believing in nothing. That's why, when I hear about the decline in mainstream church attendance, and notice churches disappearing from the skyline, I don't necessarily feel that science and rationality are filling the gap. Quite the contrary.

Now I generally only buy the New Statesman once a year (at Christmas), which is only slightly less frequently than I buy The Guardian (though this is largely due to my inability to read on the train in the morning, and not for political reasons), but it did allow me, back in 2002, to catch John Gray's essay, The Myth of Secularism, (taken from his book, Straw Dogs) which should be pretty tough reading for atheists (and I remember it being so). Here's an extract:
The need for religion appears to be hard-wired in the human animal. Certainly the behaviour of secular humanists supports this hypothesis. Atheists are usually just as emotionally engaged as believers. Quite commonly, they are more intellectually rigid. One cannot engage in dialogue with religious thinkers in Britain today without quickly discovering that they are, on the whole, more intelligent, better educated and strikingly more free-thinking than unbelievers (as evangelical atheists still incongruously describe themselves). No doubt there are many reasons for this state of affairs, but I suspect it is the repression of the religious impulse that explains the obsessive rigidity of secular thought.

Liberal humanists repress religious experience - in themselves and others - in much the same way that sexuality was repressed in the strait-laced societies of the past.
These may be easy targets, but not many atheists seem to have progressed beyond the "how can 'God' exist as a living being, and where?" argument, the thoroughly anal "Can 'God' create something he cannot control?", or indeed the classic, "Why does a benign god inflict suffering upon mankind", which any keen student of moral philosophy ought to absolutely lap up. Lame argument it may be, but I bet even I could give an answer from a religious perspective that could trump any from the secular side.

So what's our real enemy: is it theism, religions (or, indeed, particular ones), all non-scientific belief systems (including political ideologies), faith, the hierarchies of organised religions, its perceived conservatism, or the political power and moral influence wielded by those religions that the State has bestowed special privileges?

Would disestablishment of the Church of England (which I moderately support) pull the rug under the CofE, liberate more children from the tyranny of school assemblies and foster atheism, or liberate the organisation from being the "provider of last resort"?

5 comments so far...

At 3:23 AM, December 13, 2005, Blogger Neil Harding said...

Nicely written B4L. I don't agree about religious people being more intelligent, but I would say that wouldn't I.

I also don't agree that I'm somehow repressing my religiosity by being anti-theist.

I'll be interested as to how you answer the following question from Bertrand Russell;

"How can anyone who professes to be profoundly humane believe in everlasting punishment?"

Religion makes claims on our behaviour with no reasonable justification.

Even Blimpish admitted that religion is just a confusion of conflicting symbols and metaphors. How and why would anybody rational live their life by those indeterminates. It doesn't make any sense.

There is no more evidence for a God than there is for fairies at the bottom of the garden. And there is plenty of reasonable refutation for religion's claims, the bible and other religious teachings have consistently fallen foul to scientific advances. I just don't see how you can claim this is easily dismissed.

   
At 11:20 AM, December 13, 2005, Blogger Stephen Newton said...

I reviewed Gray’s Straw Dogs on my blog back in March 2004 and while I agree it’s worth a read I found it intellectually thin. The problem is that Gray doesn’t follow through on any of his ideas. Gray only really challenges those who have difficulty recognising that humans are animals and for whom the descriptor ‘other animals’ jars when describing the beasts.

That ‘the need for religion appears to be hardwired into the human animal’ may be true. In July 2004 I blogged on attempts to teach creationism in a Middlesbrough School. One of the arguments in favour – ‘To teach children that they are nothing more than developed mutations who evolved from something akin to a monkey and that death is the end of everything is hardly going to engender within them a sense of purpose, self-worth and self-respect.’ – part way explains why religious belief may have evolutionary advantages: belief provides a sense of purpose.

That religious belief offers evolutionary advantages is not evidence (let alone proof) of the existence of God, nor does it mean that religion is any way rational. Man invented God to give himself sense of purpose.

   
At 12:29 PM, December 13, 2005, Blogger jonathan said...

Hi A,

Excellent post, I enjoyed reading that. I've been meaning to write something similar for a while now, so it's interesting to get your interpretation. Will have a think about this and might get going with a few thoughts myself...

Jonathan

   
At 10:19 PM, December 13, 2005, Blogger Bloggers4Labour said...

Neil,

"How can anyone who professes to be profoundly humane believe in everlasting punishment?"

Whether or not it really happens is irrelevant. We believe it's a nonsense, but for some people, before the age of reason, it might have been an effective way of enforcing that religion's moral code. Isn't it likely more effective than "Behave, or I/we will kill you"? What's the point of a God who says, "you do what you like, all is forgiven"?

Religion makes claims on our behaviour with no reasonable justification.

They're selling a moral code, from which follows a social structure. Perhaps that moral code offers benefits for those who have none? And organises a society which is chaotic or applies arbitrary rules? We certainly don't feel we need this kind of thing (any more), but there, at least, is your potential justification.

What isn't just a confusion of conflicting symbols and metaphors? Religion tries to make sense of these things, either using them to justify their own agenda, or encourage acceptance, conformity, or 'more profitable' areas of activity. It's us so-called rationalists who enjoy the challenge of, well, weaving these strands into something *we* accept, but which must have no religious element at all.

There is no more evidence for a God than there is for fairies at the bottom of the garden.

You're talking about the existence of a physical thing called God? Surely that's a complete distraction from the moral, spiritual, and social aspects that seem to interest the religious? Of course they'd say that they see God in the smile of every new-born baby, or some such rot, but that's how, for them, God makes his presence known.

... the bible and other religious teachings have consistently fallen foul to scientific advances.

Same thing, I think. These religious tomes are not science, are barely even history, and have been cobbled-together in all sorts of ways. What are you expecting? Some people are able to derive a moral code from them, and haven't been fools or wound up as hell-fire preachers.

   
At 5:56 PM, December 15, 2005, Blogger Blimpish said...

Finally something Neil and I can agree on... good post, B4L. A couple of comments back:

"if [atheist morality]'s really that different from Christianity without the god."

I'd agree here, but I'd guess that that's because you (like me) were raised in a culture dominated by Christianity, built up over centuries. My parents weren't (aren't) religious, but they were brought up by parents who were, slightly, and they in turn were raised by more devout people. My question is (and this is a convenient rather than logical justification for God), can that morality subsist without its Christian moorings? Or will it just lapse to sentimentality which can justify (and sugar-soak) pretty much anything?

"So what's our real enemy: is it theism, religions (or, indeed, particular ones), all non-scientific belief systems (including political ideologies), faith, the hierarchies of organised religions, its perceived conservatism, or the political power and moral influence wielded by those religions that the State has bestowed special privileges?"

Obviously, I'm only partly part of the 'our' here - perceived conservatism, hierarchy and authority not being bad things from my view... but I'd suggest the problem is as ever to find the golden mean of intellectual, moral and cultural order, halfway between anarchy and stagnation and repression. As you hint at, there's no contradiction between being seriously religious and yet able to engage intelligently with scientific or philosophic debate. In terms of ideologies, Scruton defined them in an essay a few years ago as being "a doctrine of salvation tied to no experience of the sacred" - consequently, they set about trying to create heaven on earth, just as some of the nuttier religious sects do.

"Perhaps that moral code offers benefits for those who have none? And organises a society which is chaotic or applies arbitrary rules? We certainly don't feel we need this kind of thing (any more), but there, at least, is your potential justification."

'We' don't feel we need this kind of thing, but a lot of people do - I might be making heroic inferences here, but I guess 'we' all here are articulate people with either secure jobs or the reasonable anticipation of them in the future. The growing denominations in Christianity and Islam tend to be those that go furthest down this road, and their recruiting grounds are often the marginalised in society - who these days might, as you say, like a bit of moral clarity.

   

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